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the: "evolution of trance" complain syndrome
jetflag
PostPosted: 06 July 2010 - 17:21:25 (764)  Reply with quote
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Duski wrote:
If music develops, people can affect the way it moves, right? I find it very important to raise concerns on what one feels for good or for bad on the development. After all people together make that development to happen in the end.

For example the point of overcompression, of course everyone hating it should raise their voice against it. Even if one likes compressed sound, overcompression at worst means going over the top, brickwalling all the sound, making it almost noise with nearly 0 dynamics left.

Plenty of development comes just from complaining, or rather people getting fed up about things they feel strongly about and do something about it. Personally I had to go and try making uncompressed electonic music, just to prove a point. And yeah, it sounds very good, full, soulful and natural. With my not-top-notch skills. So I can claim people should _at_least_ try it out themselves, instead of pigeonholing themselves into "I-must-sidechain-all" or whatever silly mindset.

In my opinion sound quality technically today has degraded horribly. Ideas, fullness, new soundscapes, yeah we have all that going on, but quality of sound has reached lowest point since we got into 44.1khz. It has been going on so long that some people cannot hear the difference anymore.


Some interesting thoughts you have there…

As a fellow EDM producer, I tend to agree with you on the fact that over-compressing a track often sounds horrible. The technical specs of today’s worse cases might be the only measurable objective standard which could be used to point out that the scene has degraded at that point. However, the quality standard and our perception of what sounds good and what sounds bad is still a subjective vision influenced by our contact with music over the years. The same applies to the “newer” generation of listeners who have been influenced by nowadays tracks and who, allegedly, enjoy a compressed sound. So which one is right to say that it IS good or it IS bad, when it comes down to a subjective vision?

This is a constancy within the world of art in general. A renaissance architect wouldn’t understand a Rem Koolhaas creation as well and would probably say that the quality of architecture has horribly degraded, according to his set of quality standards. Yet Rem Koolhaas buildings are worldwide praised by modernist architects, no matter how hard the renaissance architect would complain. When it comes to changes within a certain art stream one could say that resistance is simply futile at the present time. The events will occur. And complaints from an older generation in this context will only re-enforce that. Another constancy (luckily) is that every revolution carries the seeds of its own destruction. So in the end the scene will most likely change again (hopefully for the better).

Now, this topic wasn’t exactly addressed to people (like you) who actually contribute to the scene by creating new material that is a reaction against today’s zeitgeist, which ultimately leads to a new kind of sound. As I mentioned earlier in this topic. If you have problems with current changes, pick up a DAW and make a difference. This “what makes me mad” topic was mostly directed to people who do nothing BUT complaining. And I hope you agree with me on the fact that “just complaining” isn’t going to change anything or help anyone.

by the way, i'dd like to hear some of your work if you have anything posted happy

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Duski
PostPosted: 06 July 2010 - 17:32:46 (772)  Reply with quote
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When everything gets compressed too much in most tracks, new generation won't know of anything better. Even if there is 5% of good quality tracks out there, it will be tremendous odds against them. To appeal anyone, you need to get most of things right for that person, so that 5% will have an uphill fight ahead even if tracks sound technically better.

Furthermore when people get adapted to too much compression and have not heard much of good dynamics, their perception has been altered already. That only adds to the trouble of getting good quality back on mainstream, plenty of folks might just skip a track that is "too silent" compared to others.

Not that I have answers for what to do, other than create dynamic music for myself to enjoy... if only I could manage to push myself to study a bit more of everything heh.

EDIT: About posting tracks, will do if / when I do manage to get mixdowns done good enough, not satisfied with my current level.


Last edited by Duski on 06 July 2010 - 17:37:40 (776); edited 1 time in total
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jetflag
PostPosted: 06 July 2010 - 17:36:14 (775)  Reply with quote
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Duski wrote:
When everything gets compressed too much in most tracks, new generation won't know of anything better. Even if there is 5% of good quality tracks out there, it will be tremendous odds against them. To appeal anyone, you need to get most of things right for that person, so that 5% will have an uphill fight ahead even if tracks sound technically better.

Furthermore when people get adapted to too much compression and have not heard much of good dynamics, their perception has been altered already. That only adds to the trouble of getting good quality back on mainstream, plenty of folks might just skip a track that is "too silent" compared to others.

Not that I have answers for what to do, other than create dynamic music for myself to enjoy... if only I could manage to push myself to study a bit more of everything heh.


true, but then again, who are we to tell them that music with dynamics sounds better? all we can do is make music that doenst have an uber limiter over it, and ask dj's if they'd be so friendly to use "the volume knob" puh

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Duski
PostPosted: 07 July 2010 - 02:07:27 (130)  Reply with quote
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jetflag wrote:
true, but then again, who are we to tell them that music with dynamics sounds better? all we can do is make music that doenst have an uber limiter over it, and ask dj's if they'd be so friendly to use "the volume knob" puh


But compression, and especially overcompression, does not add anything (when used for reducing dynamics). It only reduces dynamics. Argument that people like it more would be like saying people would like more of 128kbps mp3 than 192kbps or higher, in my opinion.
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RichardClairemont
PostPosted: 07 July 2010 - 02:24:07 (141)  Reply with quote
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I agree. I'd rather have a track that was just produced and mastered to peak at a reasonable volume than one that's over compressed. Honestly though I'm not really a mastering wizard so I don't know the intricacies of it, but the biggest complaint I've gotten about the tracks I've posted publicly is that they're too loud and got all kinds of really complicated explanations as to how to fix it with limiters, eq's, and compresison and yadda yadda. After investigating I just took down the master volume a couple of notches and reuploaded the same track and those same folks told me it was 100% better, so I guess that's just one of those things producers do just to say they've done it. I don't know.

I'm not underplaying the importance of compression, it is a very useful technique and tracks wouldn't be complete without it, but I think it's one of those things where less is more, like automated reverb sweeps and white noise swooshes.
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skylite
PostPosted: 07 July 2010 - 06:36:18 (316)  Reply with quote
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RichardClairemont wrote:
I agree. I'd rather have a track that was just produced and mastered to peak at a reasonable volume than one that's over compressed. Honestly though I'm not really a mastering wizard so I don't know the intricacies of it, but the biggest complaint I've gotten about the tracks I've posted publicly is that they're too loud and got all kinds of really complicated explanations as to how to fix it with limiters, eq's, and compresison and yadda yadda. After investigating I just took down the master volume a couple of notches and reuploaded the same track and those same folks told me it was 100% better, so I guess that's just one of those things producers do just to say they've done it. I don't know.

I'm not underplaying the importance of compression, it is a very useful technique and tracks wouldn't be complete without it, but I think it's one of those things where less is more, like automated reverb sweeps and white noise swooshes.


for sure, compression should be used lightly and only when appropriate.

I havent been in audio engineering school in like 5 years but compression keeps the louder sounds where they are and brings up the lower sounds so you can hear them better. Im not sure what an EQ would do to help unless you add it in only at the part which is "too loud" but that just sounds dumb. and limiters if you dont use them correctly can give your song harsh clipping.

basically people are becoming more obsessed with dynamic compression so they can make their track as loud as it can possibly can get before reaching 0 decibels. I dont have that much of a problem with it because i love to jam my music way to loud anyways haha thumbsup
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jetflag
PostPosted: 08 July 2010 - 18:33:52 (815)  Reply with quote
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if history teaches us anything its that the overcompression trend will probably have a counter reaction at some point.

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choski2
PostPosted: 03 August 2010 - 10:12:45 (467)  Reply with quote
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I am one of the complainers that this topic is about, and all I can say is, during 2000-2002 I felt a lot of magic in a lot of trance music. It was an exciting time to be a trance fan. After that the magic started fading away, and I really do believe that it's because the quality of music began to decline more and more. My favorite artists like Push, Ferry Corsten, Above and Beyond, Riva, and Vincent de Moor either started changing their style for the worse or just stopped releasing music. Personally it was a big blow to me and trance just got a lot less exciting and enjoyable because of that. Sorry, if you don't agree, but that's how I honestly feel.
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Kirederf
PostPosted: 03 August 2010 - 21:33:12 (939)  Reply with quote
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I'm in. I remember Laurent saying in a discussion: the Dutchies killed Trance...
Why? Because they commercialized it...

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jetflag
PostPosted: 09 August 2010 - 20:36:09 (900)  Reply with quote
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choski2 wrote:
I am one of the complainers that this topic is about, and all I can say is, during 2000-2002 I felt a lot of magic in a lot of trance music. It was an exciting time to be a trance fan. After that the magic started fading away, and I really do believe that it's because the quality of music began to decline more and more. My favorite artists like Push, Ferry Corsten, Above and Beyond, Riva, and Vincent de Moor either started changing their style for the worse or just stopped releasing music. Personally it was a big blow to me and trance just got a lot less exciting and enjoyable because of that. Sorry, if you don't agree, but that's how I honestly feel.


choski2, I never said to have agreed or disagreed with the statement that trance has or hasn't declined in quality

this topic is about the fact that people who do feel the same way you do can't shut-up about it, and post new topics on the matter every week in which they keep repeating there complaints.

do you honestly think that by whining over the matter constantly (or "teaching others" as some call it) you're helping trance reach quality levels again?

if thats not the case and all you want to do is complain, then can't you people make a stickie topic about it? instead of flooding the forum with a different topic each month about trance-doomsday-prophecies and malcontent?

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WebmaN
PostPosted: 09 August 2010 - 21:44:25 (947)  Reply with quote
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jetflag wrote:

if thats not the case and all you want to do is complain, then can't you people make a stickie topic about it? instead of flooding the forum with a different topic each month about trance-doomsday-prophecies and malcontent?

didn't you notice also that it's mostly newbies on the forum who post threads about it? i agree, sticky it!

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Mythological
PostPosted: 10 August 2010 - 02:03:18 (127)  Reply with quote
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Some of you are going to burst a blood vessel in your cranium, I swear lol
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Rick Mage
PostPosted: 26 September 2010 - 09:45:02 (447)  Reply with quote
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Ok, guys. I got it! Here is a way that I think I can explain it to where maybe some of the new kids can understand. happy

Take a look at heavy metal and the 90s explosion of Christian rock. Most old schoolers didn't like it and do you know why? 80s and 90s rock wasn't supposed to sound like it was made for your mom, dad, and the whole family. grin2 It was supposed sound like it was made for the rebellious rebels. You know. For bad asses. cool The reverse "bad ass" is geeky. When Christian rock came out it was considered "geeky" by most. puh Not only was it considered "geeky", it sounded "geeky", too. Why? The words to the Christian rock songs.

Seriously. You hear awesome electric guitars, along with the bass guitar, and the heavy drumming! You're thinking, "yeah, this is gonna rock! thumbsup". Then the lead singer, with the long hair, starts to sing and out of his mouth goes... "God is Great! grin2 Jesus loves you! grin2 Be born again! grin2"......I'm sorry but that just totally ruins it for me...Christian words were not made for heavy metal. Heavy metal was not made to be turned into Christian rock, I don't care! That same for that Christian pop, and rap shit. It just doesn't work....The old school would not approve.

Now, here's where today's trance comes in. cool This "pop, la,la,la" trance has taken the same roll as this "Christian rock, pop, and rap." When edm came out, it was supposed to be bad. Made for the rebels in the eighties and 90s (& 70s if you wanna get technical). But made for the underground people. cool Made to sound good but difficult to find. Made to sound unique. It was not made for the fluffy, "let's get ready to go to the high school prom" so we can listen to New Kids On The Block type people. The only thing that was supposed to sound like pop, in the EDM world, was Euro Dance. puh And seriously. Euro Dance is nice and a little catchy but in all honesty, it sounds like it was made for preteens. puh

But now today's producers are attempting to turn trance into the rock version of Christian rock. puh Thus, a lot of the new songs sounds geeky\made for preteens like. You hear today's trance and it starts off nice. Nice beat. Nice bass. Not great but nice. And the flow is starting to get you hooked. happy BAM!! angry smilie All of a sudden, you're listening to pop music with a techno\house beat, with just the cheesiest lyrics and simple melody, sung by a girl that sounds like she's part of a high school cheer leading team! angry smilie It makes me so mad!! angry smilie I just want to explode!! angry smilie And seriously....where's the bass in today's songs?? angry smilie Farty bass IS NOT evolved bass! angry smilie You're gonna have to trust me on that. cool

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jetflag
PostPosted: 26 September 2010 - 13:30:47 (604)  Reply with quote
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yes trance nowadays ultimately sucks, you will never find true happiness in music again....

what are you gonna do, cry about it?





and, on a side note, this topic is I don't know how old. exactly how long did you take writing your " statement anyway lol

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Rick Mage
PostPosted: 27 September 2010 - 05:21:00 (264)  Reply with quote
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jetflag wrote:
yes trance nowadays ultimately sucks, you will never find true happiness in music again....

what are you gonna do, cry about it?

http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af204/jetflag/moaningabouttrancemotivator.jpg
No. You know how animals eat their young?? It's kinda like that! angry smilie

But I wasn't the one making a topic "crying" about how everyone keeps talking shit about today's trance. puh I was just trying to help "you" understand where we are coming from. cool I hope it helped. happy

jetflag wrote:

and, on a side note, this topic is I don't know how old. exactly how long did you take writing your " statement anyway lol
I would say about an hour...with making all the corrections and edits. cool Why you ask?

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